Saṁyutta Nikāya — The Connected Discourses

SN44: Connected Discourses on the Undeclared

SN44:9 The Debating Hall

1Then the wanderer Vacchagotta approached the Blessed One and exchanged greetings with him. When they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to the Blessed One:

2"In recent days, Master Gotama, a number of ascetics, brahmins, and wanderers of various sects had assembled in the debating hall and were sitting together when this conversation arose among them: [n.380] Spk explains kutūhalasālā (lit. "commotion hall") as a place where ascetics and brahmins of other sects engage in various discussions. It is so named because commotion arises as they say, "What does this one say? What does that one say?"
The teachers mentioned are the famous "six heretics," the rivals of Gotama (see SN3:1 n 200). It is strange that predictions about rebirth are ascribed to Ajita, since elsewhere he is reported to have taught materialism and to have denied an afterlife. Even Sañjaya is reported to have been a sceptic about such issues.
‘This Pūraṇa Kassapa—the leader of an order, the leader of a group, the teacher of a group, the well known and famous spiritual guide considered holy by many people—declares the rebirth of a disciple who has passed away and died thus: "That one was reborn there, that one was reborn there." And in the case of a disciple who was a person of the highest kind, a supreme person, one who had attained the supreme attainment, when that disciple has passed away and died he also declares his rebirth thus: "That one was reborn there, that one was reborn there."


3This Makkhali Gosāla … This Nigaṇṭha Nataputta … This Sañjaya Belaṭṭhiputta … This Pakudha Kaccāyana … This Ajita Kesakambalī … when that disciple has passed away sn.iv.399 and died he also declares his rebirth thus: "That one was reborn there, that one was reborn there."


4This ascetic Gotama—the leader of an order, the leader of a group, the teacher of a group, the well known and famous spiritual guide considered holy by many people—declares the rebirth of a disciple who has passed away and died thus: "That one was reborn there, that one was reborn there." But in the case of a disciple who was a person of the highest kind, a supreme person, one who had attained the supreme attainment, when that disciple has passed away and died he does not declare his rebirth thus: "That one was reborn there, that one was reborn there." Rather, he declares of him: "He cut off craving, severed the fetter, and, by completely breaking through conceit, he has made an end to suffering."’


"There was perplexity in me, Master Gotama, there was doubt: ‘How is the Dhamma of the ascetic Gotama to be understood?’"

5"It is fitting for you to be perplexed, Vaccha, it is fitting for you to doubt. Doubt has arisen in you about a perplexing matter. I declare, Vaccha, rebirth for one with fuel, not for one without fuel. Just as a fire burns with fuel, but not without fuel, so, Vaccha, I declare rebirth for one with fuel, not for one without fuel." [n.381] Sa-upādānassa khvāhaṃ Vaccha upapattiṃ paññāpemi no anupādānassa. There is a double meaning here, with upādāna meaning both "fuel" and subjective "clinging," but I have translated the sentence in consonance with the following simile. It was also in a discourse to Vacchagotta that the Buddha used his famous simile of the fire that goes out from lack of fuel to illustrate the status of one who has attained Nibbāna; see MN72 (MN I 487,11–30).


6"Master Gotama, when a flame is flung by the wind and goes some distance, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that occasion?"

"When, Vaccha, a flame is flung by the wind and goes some distance, I declare that it is fuelled by the wind. For on that occasion the wind is its fuel." sn.iv.400

"And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that occasion?"

"When, Vaccha, a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. [n.382] Tam ahaṃ taṇhūpādānaṃ vadāmi. The Buddha’s statement seems to imply that a temporal gap can intervene between the death moment and reconception. Since this contradicts Theravada orthodoxy, Spk contends that at the death moment itself the being is said to be "not yet reborn" because the rebirth-consciousness has not yet arisen. For on that occasion craving is its fuel."

1Atha kho vacchagotto paribbājako yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavatā saddhiṁ sammodi. Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho vacchagotto paribbājako bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:

2"Purimāni, bho gotama, divasāni purimatarāni sambahulānaṁ nānātitthiyānaṁ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ kutūhalasālāyaṁ sannisinnānaṁ sannipatitānaṁ ayamantarākathā udapādi: ‘Ayaṁ kho pūraṇo kassapo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa. Sopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti: "asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno"ti. Yopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tampi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti: "asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno"ti.


3Ayampi kho makkhali gosālo … pe … ayampi kho nigaṇṭho nāṭaputto … pe … ayampi kho sañcayo belaṭṭhaputto … pe … ayampi kho pakudho kaccāno … pe … ayampi kho ajito kesakambalo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa. Sopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti: "asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno"ti. Yopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tampi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti: "asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno"’ti.


4Ayampi kho samaṇo gotamo saṅghī ceva gaṇī ca gaṇācariyo ca ñāto yasassī titthakaro sādhusammato bahujanassa. Sopi sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu byākaroti: ‘asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno’ti. Yopissa sāvako uttamapuriso paramapuriso paramapattipatto tañca sāvakaṁ abbhatītaṁ kālaṅkataṁ upapattīsu na byākaroti: ‘asu amutra upapanno, asu amutra upapanno’ti. Api ca kho naṁ evaṁ byākaroti: ‘acchecchi taṇhāṁ, vivattayi saṁyojanaṁ, sammā mānābhisamayā antamakāsi dukkhassā’ti.


Tassa mayhaṁ, bho gotama, ahu deva kaṅkhā, ahu vicikicchā: ‘kathaṁ nāma samaṇassa gotamassa dhammo abhiññeyyo’"ti?

5"Alañhi te, vaccha, kaṅkhītuṁ, alaṁ vicikicchituṁ. Kaṅkhanīye ca pana te ṭhāne vicikicchā uppannā. Saupādānassa khvāhaṁ, vaccha, upapattiṁ paññāpemi no anupādānassa. Seyyathāpi, vaccha, aggi saupādāno jalati, no anupādāno; evameva khvāhaṁ, vaccha, saupādānassa upapattiṁ paññāpemi, no anupādānassā"ti.


6"Yasmiṁ, bho gotama, samaye acci vātena khittā dūrampi gacchati, imassa pana bhavaṁ gotamo kiṁ upādānasmiṁ paññāpetī"ti?

"Yasmiṁ kho, vaccha, samaye acci vātena khittā dūrampi gacchati, tamahaṁ vātūpādānaṁ paññāpemi. Vāto hissa, vaccha, tasmiṁ samaye upādānaṁ hotī"ti.

"Yasmiñca pana, bho gotama, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, imassa pana bhavaṁ gotamo kiṁ upādānasmiṁ paññāpetī"ti?

"Yasmiṁ kho, vaccha, samaye imañca kāyaṁ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṁ kāyaṁ anupapanno hoti, tamahaṁ taṇhūpādānaṁ vadāmi. Taṇhā hissa, vaccha, tasmiṁ samaye upādānaṁ hotī"ti.


Navamaṁ.

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