SN12:24 Wanderers of Other Sects
- DG BB TBW © Translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi. (More copyright information)
1Then, in the morning, the Venerable Sāriputta dressed and, taking bowl and robe, entered Rājagaha for alms. Then it occurred to him: "It is still too early to walk for alms in Rājagaha. Let me go to the park of the wanderers of other sects."
2Then the Venerable Sāriputta sn.ii.33 went to the park of the wanderers of other sects. He exchanged greetings with those wanderers and, when they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side. The wanderers then said to him:
3"Friend Sāriputta, some ascetics and brahmins, proponents of kamma, maintain that suffering is created by oneself; some ascetics and brahmins, proponents of kamma, maintain that suffering is created by another; some ascetics and brahmins, proponents of kamma, maintain that suffering is created both by oneself and by another; some ascetics and brahmins, proponents of kamma, maintain that suffering has arisen fortuitously, being created neither by oneself nor by another. [n.71] On the identity of the four views see above n. 37.
Now, friend Sāriputta, what does the ascetic Gotama say about this? What does he teach? How should we answer if we are to state what has been said by the ascetic Gotama and not misrepresent him with what is contrary to fact? And how should we explain in accordance with the Dhamma so that no reasonable consequence of our assertion would give ground for criticism?"
[n.72] A stock passage in the Nikāyas, recurring in SN in slightly different forms determined by the context, at SN12.25, 12:26, SN22.2, 22:86, SN35.81, 42:13, SN44.2, and SN45.5. The readings alternate, even within the same volume, between vādānuvādo and vādānupāto, and it is uncertain which of the two is more original. The passage has stumped previous translators, mainly because of the phrase koci sahadhammiko vādānupāto, which at KS 2:28 is rendered "one who is of his doctrine, a follower of his views." To avoid such errors two meanings of sahadhammika must be distinguished: (i) a noun meaning a follower of the same doctrine (unambiguously so at MN I 64,13); and (ii) an adjective meaning legitimate, reasonable (unambiguously so at SN41.8; IV 299,25 foll.). Here the second meaning is applicable.
Spk explains: "How should we answer so that not the slightest consequence or implication (vadanupato vadappavatti) of the ascetic Gotama's assertion—(a consequence) which is reasonable because of the reason stated (vutta-karaṇena sakaraṇo hutva)—might give ground for criticism?" This is meant: "How can there be no ground for criticism in any way of the ascetic Gotama's assertion?" I dissent from Spk on what is to be safeguarded against criticism: Spk takes it to be the Buddha’s assertion, while I understand it to be the inquirer's account of the Buddha’s assertion. In other words, the inquirer wants to be sure he is representing the Buddha’s position correctly, whether or not he agrees with it.
At AN III 4,10ff., 19 sahadhammikā vādānuvādā gārayhā ṭhānā āgacchanti occurs in a context where it means simply "reasonable rebukes, grounds for criticism, come up," and is contrasted with sahadhammikā pāsaṁsā ṭhānā āgacchanti, "reasonable grounds for praise come up."
4"Friends, the Blessed One has said that suffering is dependently arisen. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact. If one were to speak thus one would be stating what has been said by the Blessed One and would not misrepresent him with what is contrary to fact; one would explain in accordance with the Dhamma, and no reasonable consequence of one's assertion would give ground for criticism.
5"Therein, friends, in the case of those ascetics and brahmins, proponents of kamma, who maintain that suffering is created by oneself, that is conditioned by contact. [n.73] On the expression tadapi phassapaccayā, "that (too) is conditioned by contact," Spk says that this may be known from the fact that there is no experience of suffering without contact. It seems to me, however, that the point being made here is not that suffering does not arise without contact (though this is true), but that the adoption of a view does not occur without contact. The Brahmajala Sutta states the same point in relation to the sixty-two speculative views—that the proclamation of each of these views is conditioned by contact and the views cannot be experienced without contact. See DN I 41–43, translated in Bodhi, All-Embracing Net of Views, pp. 85–87, with the commentary at pp. 197–98.
Also, in the case of those ascetics and brahmins, proponents of kamma, who maintain that suffering is created by another, that too is conditioned by contact.
Also, in the case of those ascetics and brahmins, proponents of kamma, who maintain that suffering is created both by oneself and by another, that too is conditioned by contact. sn.ii.34
Also, in the case of those ascetics and brahmins, proponents of kamma, who maintain that suffering has arisen fortuitously, being created neither by oneself nor by another, that too is conditioned by contact.
6"Therein, friends, in the case of those ascetics and brahmins, proponents of kamma, who maintain that suffering is created by oneself, it is impossible that they will experience anything without contact.
Also, in the case of those ascetics and brahmins, proponents of kamma, who maintain that suffering is created by another, it is impossible that they will experience anything without contact.
Also, in the case of those ascetics and brahmins, proponents of kamma, who maintain that suffering is created both by oneself and by another, it is impossible that they will experience anything without contact.
Also, in the case of those ascetics and brahmins, proponents of kamma, who maintain that suffering has arisen fortuitously, being created neither by oneself nor by another, it is impossible that they will experience anything without contact."
7The Venerable Ānanda heard this conversation between the Venerable Sāriputta and the wanderers of other sects. Then, when he had walked for alms in Rājagaha and had returned from the alms round, after his meal he approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and reported to the Blessed One the entire conversation between the Venerable Sāriputta and those wanderers of other sects.
8The Blessed One said:
"Good, good, Ānanda! Anyone answering rightly would answer just as Sāriputta has done. I have said, Ānanda, that suffering is dependently arisen. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact. If one were to speak thus one would be stating what has been said by me and would not misrepresent me with what is contrary to fact; one would explain in accordance with the Dhamma, and no reasonable consequence of one's assertion would give ground for criticism.
9"Therein, Ānanda, in the case of those ascetics and brahmins, proponents of kamma, who maintain that suffering is created by oneself sn.ii.35 … and those who maintain that suffering has arisen fortuitously, being created neither by oneself nor by another, that too is conditioned by contact.
10"Therein, Ānanda, in the case of those ascetics and brahmins, proponents of kamma, who maintain that suffering is created by oneself … and those who maintain that suffering has arisen fortuitously, being created neither by oneself nor by another, it is impossible that they will experience anything without contact.
11"On one occasion, Ānanda, I was dwelling right here in Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrel Sanctuary. Then, in the morning, I dressed and, taking bowl and robe, I entered Rājagaha for alms. Then it occurred to me: ‘It is still too early to walk for alms in Rājagaha. Let me go to the park of the wanderers of other sects.’
12Then I went to the park of the wanderers of other sects. I exchanged greetings with those wanderers and, when we had concluded our greetings and cordial talk, I sat down to one side. The wanderers then said to me as I was sitting to one side:
13–15… the wanderers ask exactly the same question as they had asked Sāriputta and receive an identical reply sn.ii.36
16… it is impossible that they will experience anything without contact."
17"It is wonderful, venerable sir! It is amazing, venerable sir! How the entire meaning can be stated by a single phrase! Can this same meaning be stated in detail in a way that is deep and deep in implications?" [n.74] Gambhiro c’ eva assa gambhīrāvabhāso ca. The same two terms are used at SN12.60 and at DN II 55,9–10 to describe paṭiccasamuppāda. For the explanation of Sv, see Bodhi, The Great Discourse on Causation, pp. 64–67. Spk explains "that same meaning" (es’ ev’ attho) to be the meaning of dependent origination implicit in the proposition, "Suffering is dependent on contact."
18"Well then, Ānanda, clear up that same matter yourself."
"Venerable sir, if they were to ask me: ‘Friend Ānanda, what is the source of aging-and-death, what is its origin, from what is it born and produced?’—being asked thus, I would answer thus:
‘Friends, aging-and-death has birth as its source, birth as its origin; it is born and produced from birth.’ Being asked thus, I would answer in such a way. sn.ii.37
19"Venerable sir, if they were to ask me: ‘Friend Ānanda, what is the source of birth, what is its origin, from what is it born and produced?’—being asked thus, I would answer thus:
‘Friends, birth has existence as its source, existence as its origin; it is born and produced from existence … .
20Existence has clinging as its source …
21Clinging has craving as its source …
Craving has feeling as its source …
Feeling has contact as its source …
Contact has the six sense bases as its source, the six sense bases as its origin; it is born and produced from the six sense bases.
But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases for contact comes cessation of contact;
with the cessation of contact, cessation of feeling;
with the cessation of feeling, cessation of craving;
with the cessation of craving, cessation of clinging;
with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence;
with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth;
with the cessation of birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease.
Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.’
Being asked thus, venerable sir, I would answer in such a way."
1Rājagahe vihārati veḷuvane. Atha kho āyasmā sāriputto pubbaṇhasamayaṁ nivāsetvā pattacīvaramādāya rājagahaṁ piṇḍāya pāvisi. Atha kho āyasmato sāriputtassa etadahosi: "atippago kho tāva rājagahe piṇḍāya carituṁ. Yannūnāhaṁ yena aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ ārāmo tenupasaṅkameyyan"ti.
2Atha kho āyasmā sāriputto yena aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ ārāmo tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā tehi aññatitthiyehi paribbājakehi saddhiṁ sammodi. Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinnaṁ kho āyasmantaṁ sāriputtaṁ te aññatitthiyā paribbājakā etadavocuṁ:
3"Santāvuso sāriputta, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti. Santi panāvuso sāriputta, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā paraṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti. Santāvuso sāriputta, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkatañca paraṅkatañca dukkhaṁ paññapenti. Santi panāvuso sāriputta, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti.
Idha, panāvuso sāriputta, samaṇo gotamo kiṁvādī kimakkhāyī? Kathaṁ byākaramānā ca mayaṁ vuttavādino ceva samaṇassa gotamassa assāma, na ca samaṇaṁ gotamaṁ abhūtena abbhācikkheyyāma, dhammassa cānudhammaṁ byākareyyāma, na ca koci sahadhammiko vādānupāto gārayhaṁ ṭhānaṁ āgaccheyyā"ti?
4"Paṭiccasamuppannaṁ kho, āvuso, dukkhaṁ vuttaṁ bhagavatā. Kiṁ paṭicca? Phassaṁ paṭicca. Iti vadaṁ vuttavādī ceva bhagavato assa, na ca bhagavantaṁ abhūtena abbhācikkheyya, dhammassa cānudhammaṁ byākareyya, na ca koci sahadhammiko vādānupāto gārayhaṁ ṭhānaṁ āgaccheyya.
5Tatrāvuso, ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā.
Yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā paraṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā.
Yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkatañca paraṅkatañca dukkhaṁ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā.
Yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā.
6Tatrāvuso, ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṁvedissantīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.
Yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā paraṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṁvedissantīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.
Yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkatañca paraṅkatañca dukkhaṁ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṁvedissantīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.
Yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṁvedissantīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjatī"ti.
7Assosi kho āyasmā ānando āyasmato sāriputtassa tehi aññatitthiyehi paribbājakehi saddhiṁ imaṁ kathāsallāpaṁ. Atha kho āyasmā ānando rājagahe piṇḍāya caritvā pacchābhattaṁ piṇḍapātapaṭikkanto yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho āyasmā ānando yāvatako āyasmato sāriputtassa tehi aññatitthiyehi paribbājakehi saddhiṁ ahosi kathāsallāpo taṁ sabbaṁ bhagavato ārocesi.
8"Sādhu sādhu, Ānanda, yathā taṁ sāriputto sammā byākaramāno byākareyya. Paṭiccasamuppannaṁ kho, Ānanda, dukkhaṁ vuttaṁ mayā. Kiṁ paṭicca? Phassaṁ paṭicca. Iti vadaṁ vuttavādī ceva me assa, na ca maṁ abhūtena abbhācikkheyya, dhammassa cānudhammaṁ byākareyya, na ca koci sahadhammiko vādānupāto gārayhaṁ ṭhānaṁ āgaccheyya.
9Tatrānanda, ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā. Yepi te … pe … yepi te … pe … yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā.
10Tatrānanda, yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṁvedissantīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati. Yepi te … pe … yepi te … pe … yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṁvedissantīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.
11Ekamidāhaṁ, Ānanda, samayaṁ idheva rājagahe viharāmi veḷuvane kalandakanivāpe. Atha khvāhaṁ, Ānanda, pubbaṇhasamayaṁ nivāsetvā pattacīvaramādāya rājagahaṁ piṇḍāya pāvisiṁ. Tassa mayhaṁ, Ānanda, etadahosi: ‘atippago kho tāva rājagahe piṇḍāya carituṁ. Yannūnāhaṁ yena aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ ārāmo tenupasaṅkameyyan’ti.
12Atha khvāhaṁ, Ānanda, yena aññatitthiyānaṁ paribbājakānaṁ ārāmo tenupasaṅkamiṁ; upasaṅkamitvā tehi aññatitthiyehi paribbājakehi saddhiṁ sammodiṁ. Sammodanīyaṁ kathaṁ sāraṇīyaṁ vītisāretvā ekamantaṁ nisīdiṁ. Ekamantaṁ nisinnaṁ kho maṁ, Ānanda, te aññatitthiyā paribbājakā etadavocuṁ:
13‘Santāvuso gotama, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti. Santi panāvuso gotama, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā paraṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti. Santāvuso gotama, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkatañca paraṅkatañca dukkhaṁ paññapenti. Santi panāvuso gotama, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti. Idha no āyasmā gotamo kiṁvādī kimakkhāyī? Kathaṁ byākaramānā ca mayaṁ vuttavādino ceva āyasmato gotamassa assāma, na ca āyasmantaṁ gotamaṁ abhūtena abbhācikkheyyāma, dhammassa cānudhammaṁ byākareyyāma, na ca koci sahadhammiko vādānupāto gārayhaṁ ṭhānaṁ āgaccheyyā’ti?
14Evaṁ vuttāhaṁ, Ānanda, te aññatitthiye paribbājake etadavocaṁ: ‘paṭiccasamuppannaṁ kho, āvuso, dukkhaṁ vuttaṁ mayā. Kiṁ paṭicca? Phassaṁ paṭicca. Iti vadaṁ vuttavādī ceva me assa, na ca maṁ abhūtena abbhācikkheyya, dhammassa cānudhammaṁ byākareyya, na ca koci sahadhammiko vādānupāto gārayhaṁ ṭhānaṁ āgaccheyyāti.
15Tatrāvuso, ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā. Yepi te … pe … yepi te … pe … yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti tadapi phassapaccayā.
16Tatrāvuso, ye te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā sayaṅkataṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṁvedissantīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati. Yepi te … pe … yepi te … pe … yepi te samaṇabrāhmaṇā kammavādā asayaṅkāraṁ aparaṅkāraṁ adhiccasamuppannaṁ dukkhaṁ paññapenti, te vata aññatra phassā paṭisaṁvedissantīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjatī’"ti.
17"Acchariyaṁ bhante, abbhutaṁ bhante. Yatra hi nāma ekena padena sabbo attho vutto bhavissati. Siyā nu kho, bhante, esevattho vitthārena vuccamāno gambhīro ceva assa gambhīrāvabhāso cā"ti?
18"Tena hānanda, taññevettha paṭibhātū"ti.
"Sace maṁ, bhante, evaṁ puccheyyuṁ: ‘jarāmaraṇaṁ, āvuso Ānanda, kiṁnidānaṁ kiṁsamudayaṁ kiṁjātikaṁ kiṁpabhavan’ti? Evaṁ puṭṭhohaṁ, bhante, evaṁ byākareyyaṁ: ‘jarāmaraṇaṁ kho, āvuso, jātinidānaṁ jātisamudayaṁ jātijātikaṁ jātipabhavan’ti. Evaṁ puṭṭhohaṁ, bhante, evaṁ byākareyyaṁ.
19Sace maṁ, bhante, evaṁ puccheyyuṁ: ‘jāti panāvuso Ānanda, kiṁnidānā kiṁsamudayā kiṁjātikā kiṁpabhavā’ti? Evaṁ puṭṭhohaṁ, bhante, evaṁ byākareyyaṁ: ‘jāti kho, āvuso, bhavanidānā bhavasamudayā bhavajātikā bhavappabhavā’ti. Evaṁ puṭṭhohaṁ, bhante, evaṁ byākareyyaṁ.
20Sace maṁ, bhante, evaṁ puccheyyuṁ: ‘bhavo panāvuso Ānanda, kiṁnidāno kiṁsamudayo kiṁjātiko kiṁpabhavo’ti? Evaṁ puṭṭhohaṁ, bhante, evaṁ byākareyyaṁ: ‘bhavo kho, āvuso, upādānanidāno upādānasamudayo upādānajātiko upādānappabhavo’ti. Evaṁ puṭṭhohaṁ, bhante, evaṁ byākareyyaṁ.
21Sace maṁ, bhante, evaṁ puccheyyuṁ – upādānaṁ panāvuso … pe …
taṇhā panāvuso … pe …
vedanā panāvuso … pe …
sace maṁ, bhante, evaṁ puccheyyuṁ: ‘phasso panāvuso Ānanda, kiṁnidāno kiṁsamudayo kiṁjātiko kiṁpabhavo’ti? Evaṁ puṭṭhohaṁ, bhante, evaṁ byākareyyaṁ: ‘phasso kho, āvuso, saḷāyatananidāno saḷāyatanasamudayo saḷāyatanajātiko saḷāyatanappabhavo’ti.
‘Channaṁ tveva, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṁ asesavirāganirodhā phassanirodho; phassanirodhā vedanānirodho; vedanānirodhā taṇhānirodho; taṇhānirodhā upādānanirodho; upādānanirodhā bhavanirodho; bhavanirodhā jātinirodho; jātinirodhā jarāmaraṇaṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā nirujjhanti.
Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hotī’ti.
Evaṁ puṭṭhohaṁ, bhante, evaṁ byākareyyan"ti.
Catutthaṁ.